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我是个玩票的,不是什么搞"学术"的: t9 R  n) a- }. |$ Q

6 O! a9 @) i6 O! W  A/ J, v" |/ [我相信什么?笑,我是最不信中文资料的,所以会去看洋文+ H2 K$ A( i9 V% M7 K; p
那个什么地方我不知道,只是我手里的英文资料是这么说的
原帖由 Surcouf 于 2008-10-9 08:05 发表
6 V' M+ m; P9 T  |原来mk8只有有限的火控能力啊2 U; A, ?' [6 v& `* L& ^% O- z
怎样解释苏里高一战中装备mk8的战舰都能发现目标并命中,而装备mk3的只有一个马里兰能有效射击?难道美国人也靠光学仪器?
5 i' Y6 q$ X2 n( s# H这言论也忒能了/ l! {+ |! T: _; \7 A  x, l5 _1 K
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别人都当火控雷达使用并取得效果了,你硬要说 ...
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% k% ]# B! P0 n- T! @请看清楚
; f9 Y- P- T* u4 E% y9 Y我说的是MK8和MK13
原帖由 Surcouf 于 2008-10-9 07:58 发表
3 a( a. E/ @5 x5 p别的我不想说
5 s3 r4 m; n" P. O; o. g7 I6 @% Q8 L1. Type 284乃是Fire control radar,你不认它它也是火控雷达
  ]6 Z) m2 v6 f2.北角海战的Duke of York用的也是284,你要说它是全靠光学仪器实现20000码左右命中的(就是打得沙舰减速那发,需要注意的是此战的海况和能见 ...
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麻烦自己去看
附件: 您所在的用户组无法下载或查看附件
真是搞笑啊,现在你要做的事是举证284不是火控雷达或者在两次作战中284没起作用,是你所说的靠测距仪完成射控的。关于这一点,我可不需要你去翻哪本书,Google一下就可以了。
原帖由 oldcat 于 2008-10-9 12:03 发表 : E0 X! O& R3 \

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" [: I. I$ Z  b8 I/ e) h# u5 X- y) l$ R请看清楚
' z/ ^1 Y$ ?) h( c4 w我说的是MK8和MK13
- J( b! {8 m( OMK13具有完全射控能力,不错% ?4 k9 `$ @5 W6 t5 d% [
可是,这又如何说明MK8不具备完全射控能力?
! v% f/ _: C" W, E' m) k1 s( e我举的苏里高的例子可以作为MK8能够指挥射控的反例吗?
查证了一下,发现我说19000码第一次开火也是不对,11000码一说可算完全正确9 c. b: B* V$ c# n; g' e  |  x/ A: z
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把全文贴一下. w5 Y" [5 I: O3 s

. {  B% p* y: f: Z( v8 EDuring the German invasion of Norway, the battlecruisers Gneisenau and Scharnhorst put to sea to patrol the area off Narvik, to cover the flank of the 10 destroyers sent to capture that Norwegian port. On April 9, 1940, the two were sailing in heavy weather near the Lofoten Islands. Gneisenau picked up a contact on her radar at 0430, and both ships went to battle stations. Around 0500 the navigator aboard Scharnhorst was attempting to take a navigational fix, when he reported that he had seen the flash of heavy gunfire in the mirror of his sextant. A minute later the scream of heavy incoming shells was heard on board Gneisenau: the radar contact was the battlecruiser HMS Renown and her nine escorting destroyers, also on patrol in the area. With her superior radar, she had taken the Gneisenau under fire from 11,800 yards, outside visual range in the low clouds and rainsqualls.
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The German twins returned fire three minutes later, and Renown shifted her fire to Scharnhorst at 0513. The three ships exchanged gunfire to no effect, exchanging salvoes sporadically until 0600, when the firing stopped. The weather was to rough for the destroyers to be effective. The German ships were under orders to avoid British warships, so they changed course frequently in an effort to disengage to the North.   b8 x4 G% u& j( r" E* k$ w( P

: r/ J, A9 N# l8 NAt 0620, firing began again, with Renown once again targeting Gneisenau. Scharnhorst's radar malfunctioned, so her fire was completely ineffective, but within 5 minutes Gneisenau had scored two hits on Renown. One 11.1-inch shell passed through the main leg of Renown's foremast without exploding, while the second struck aft of 'Y' turret. This shell hit the starboard side hull plating between the upper and main decks, and passed through the ship above the steering gear and out the other side, also without exploding. 5 z* ~3 O1 V8 Q7 D" n; J+ y

" \: h# x' A1 T0 E% wRenown answered almost immediately with two hits of her own. One of her 15-inch shells passed clean through Gneisenau's director tower without exploding, severing electrical and communication cables as it went. The debris caused by the passing shell killed one officer and five ratings, and destroyed the optical rangefinder for the forward 150mm turrets. Main battery fire control had to be shifted aft due to the loss of electrical power to the director tower. Renown's second shell struck Gneisenau's aft turret, knocking it out of action.
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- G- X- Y1 a3 g3 A7 L* x9 f) v" uThe Germans had had enough. Scharnhorst was blind, and Gneisenau had lost one third of her firepower. They ceased fire shortly after these hits, and the German twins raced northward at their best speed. It was feared that any further hits would slow one of the battlecruisers, leaving it open to torpedo attack from the British destroyers.* H0 Z. [1 E' ~6 T( ?

. h8 G6 y2 f6 a7 m  B$ AAs the German ships raced north, they began to outpace the British battlecruiser. But the heavy seas took their toll: green water over the bows damaged both German ships. Water entered the forward turrets of both ships, rendering them useless due to short circuits. Scharnhorst suffered a powerplant problem, and the starboard shaft had to be shut down. The two dropped down to 25 knots, but by then they were out of radar range and Renown was unable to locate them. The German ships turned west, and after spending several days in the Arctic Ocean to throw off any British attempts to intercept them, the battlecruisers returned to Wilhelmshaven for repairs and overhaul.
这篇文章与LZ的到底那篇是正确?: D, x  w) h# _7 y- q

/ p4 I2 E3 }1 M5 F' c/ i请看第三方,沙恩霍斯特级的专题网站的记述:http://www.scharnhorst-class.dk/ ... harnweserubung.html
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0 X: g2 e  r2 U$ i( oAt 0430 on 9 April the Gneisenau reported a radar contact, and both ships went to battle stations. About 0507 the enemy opened fire. At 0510 the main guns on the Scharnhorst responded the fire and at the same time the enemy was identified as a battlecruiser of the Renown Class.) u; t" N. @7 z5 ~6 x
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In fact it was HMS Renown and she was accompanied by nine "H" class destroyers of the 2nd Destroyer Flotilla.
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In the engagement with the Renown, the Scharnhorst's radar malfunctioned, and she could not track the target. She came under fire from the HMS Renown, but repeated course changes allowed her to escape undamaged. By 0715 the German battlecruisers had outdistanced their pursuers. However, the Scharnhorst's turret Anton was put out of action by heavy seas that cascaded over the bows and into the turret through the cartridge ejection scuttles, rangefinder gear, and the gun bloomers. The ammunition hoist motor was short-circuited by seawater. When the Scharnhorst increased speed to the maximum possible, the starboard turbine had to be stopped, which slowed the two ships to 25 knots.
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可见,除了部分时间上极小的差别,两者说法是基本吻合的。谁到底是正确的?谁是YY的?谁是YY反而将YY的帽子扣到别人头上的?
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请问了,这个叫学术?4 L, \, R& |9 D5 k
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[ 本帖最后由 Surcouf 于 2008-10-9 12:30 编辑 ]
这是英意海军在二战的首次主力舰交战 ,虽然战列舰交火有限,但是结果却是一边倒的5 h+ b; r, @. w6 M1 n8 Z9 n4 ]: F; s
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就在同一次海战中,不妨看看这个8 Q& @, `  C0 s( ~
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Some debate is ongoing in Italy about the possibility of a hit by the Cesare on Warspite around the same time; this controversy, called "the blue smoke affair" is about a blue smoke seen rising from the Warspite by officers and lookouts aboard the Cesare. There was also an article by the Italian naval historian Enrico Cernuschi, who is considered a maverick in Italian naval and naval history circles, about the actual performance of Italian naval artillery. As of 2006 no definite conclusion on this is achieved.
不仔细还不知道,这材料真是漏洞百出
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At 15:59 two shells from Giulio Cesare fell very close to Warspite. Almost immediately after one of Warspite's 381 mm rounds hit the rear deck of Giulio Cesare, setting off the stored ammunition for one of her 37mm anti-aircraft guns. The fumes from the burning ammunition were sucked down into the engine room, which had to evacuate and shut down half of the boilers. Giulio Cesare's speed quickly fell off to 18 knots and Conte di Cavour took over. Giulio Cesare and Warspite were well over 24,000 metres (26,000 yards) apart at the time of the hit, setting the record for naval gunnery against a moving target that stands to this day.
我发现楼上的越来越有BAIDU的风气了,和七爷倒是挺像的,就你那资料叫权威,其余的都是扯蛋,你凭啥说你那玩意一定正确,就因为是你手头有的,依你的逻辑,我手头的资料是这样的,* G( i6 s% Z- U& S; a! Z3 G. i- e
This battle occurred during the German invasion of Norway between the HMS Renown and the KM Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. The battle took place about 80 NM west of the Lofoten Islands. Sea state was full gale with very heavy seas. The battle opened at 0337 with the Renown having increased speed to 20 knots after spotting the two German ships. Renown was steaming west of the German's position giving her the advantage of being against the still dark sky while the German ships were silhouetted against the lightening eastern sky in morning nautical twilight. At 0405 the Renown opened fire on the Gneisenau whose crew was uncertain about the identity of the Renown and taking the Scharnhorst by surprise. 5 x# |2 a7 p) |3 V) p0 N4 [  J
Gneisenau replied at 0411. Both sides turned onto roughly parallel courses. At 0417 the Renown scored her first hit, taking out Gneisenau's main gunnery control station. The Gneisenau turned away onto a north-easterly heading and switched to secondary fire control. Scharnhorst followed laying smoke in an attempt to screen Gneisenau until she could reestablish her fire control ability. Both German ships increased their speed to about 28 knots.
7 W" s! ?) n) K, }# M+ PAt 0417 the Renown scored her first hit, taking out Gneisenau's main gunnery control station.
. _5 V' W- i+ R4 Y看这句上面写清楚了,4点17分命中,所以你那是YY的,这不就是用你的逻辑来解决问题么.
全機今ヨリ発進、敵空母ヲ撃滅セントス!!!
而且关于开火的时间点,是不是采用了同样的区时,你考证过么.............那篇所谓的第三方资料没有任何权威性可言,而且只是开火时间重合了,并没有提到开火距离,我前面已经说了,时区问题你考虑了么,如果两篇恰好使用同一时区时间,那么重合有什么好奇怪的,你的时间和我的时间正好相差约一个小时,这个问题暂且放开不谈,你前面说19000是双方乱射的,后面又说是11000才开火的,不过两边都承认,是德国人先发现了英国人,你有啥证据说明,德国人先发现了英国人,要清楚,德国人当时雷达技术不如英国先进,而且当时的战场环境是德国人那边已经天亮了,而英国人还在黑夜中.Renown was steaming west of the German's position giving her the advantage of being against the still dark sky while the German ships were silhouetted against the lightening eastern sky in morning nautical twilight,两者都对德国人不利,德国人咋就先发现了,不要和我说德国水兵大能.从这点上看我的资料上说是英国人先发现了德国人,而且是打出了奇袭,好像更有道理些,在英国人准备开火时,德国人还没摸清英国人方位呢.  F" y3 V3 e+ A; o" y4 C

3 ?, _! O0 ~3 O& h& i% o[ 本帖最后由 hyyy 于 2008-10-9 13:12 编辑 ]
全機今ヨリ発進、敵空母ヲ撃滅セントス!!!
越来越搞笑了呵" X4 \  C9 {" H2 o3 M& F
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对不起啊,我贴了2份,你只有1份
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: B! r3 s0 T' J$ l; p第一份: Around 0500 the navigator aboard Scharnhorst was attempting to take a navigational fix, when he reported that he had seen the flash of heavy gunfire in the mirror of his sextant.
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第二份:About 0507 the enemy opened fire. At 0510 the main guns on the Scharnhorst responded the fire and at the same time the enemy was identified as a battlecruiser of the Renown Class.+ s7 D) I6 W9 d% f; K+ S

  S% X, |! J' j! @& }/ o* _炮还没开始打,就取得命中了,英国人真是不得了
原帖由 hyyy 于 2008-10-9 13:00 发表 ' W  W# K  S" E" O) R
而且关于开火的时间点,是不是采用了同样的区时,你考证过么.............
' B! |9 s: I! C& W$ L2 d) `柏林时间早伦敦时间一小时+ M1 f$ `, u  T' \* ^' I4 {
你的资料:The battle opened at 0337 with the Renown having increased speed to 20 knots after spotting the two German ships.
8 C+ S$ M0 k6 o# n5 a无论柏林时间伦敦时间都不吻合,对不起啊您~
你贴了两份就了不起啊,我自己也写一份贴上,也算两份不,真搞笑,BAIDU的研究人员就靠这个啊,怪不得到处被批,还是那句话,你那资料上写几点就是几点开战的啊,另外请看清楚,如果英文不好的话,我给你翻译下The battle opened at 0337 with the Renown having increased speed to 20 knots after spotting the two German ships.这话是说,战斗的起始时间是3点37分,以 Renown 发现目标并开始加速为起算点,什么地方说了开火了,这是以接敌为战斗起算点的说法,和开火有什么关系,战斗一定要以开火为起算啊,看清楚,我这里所说的开火时间是4点5分 At 19,000 yards Renown turned to a new course to expose her full broadside. At 0405 the Renown opened fire on the Gneisenau
全機今ヨリ発進、敵空母ヲ撃滅セントス!!!
各位,你们都是个中高人,关注的也应该是话题本身,别伤了和气。0 m! G7 B8 ~% C0 j6 d. m1 k
我倒是大家能把各自的资料分享一下,也让我能多学学东西哈。
9 {% ]( z7 s& P( r5 d! \链接、书名、关键词啥的都好。* I; @8 ]' i( e  `  Q  k' n/ a; ^
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